tower challenge package . Can you hear me ? Can you hear me ? Mhm . Anita , I can hear you , you can hear me well thanks somebody can hear me , That's a good thing Andrea can you hear me ? I don't think so um I can just write in the chat . Um So and here you're back with us . Yes . Um can you all hear me ? Yes can you add the tallest tower challenge package so that everyone can open that and take that with him , make that available to them ? Yes it will be after the session . Okay they should be able to download it while it's going . Okay would you like me to show that now ? Yes please . Mhm . This one No the number three in the playlist . The tallest tower challenge package . Yes that's it . Thanks well good . Um in the interest of time I'm gonna kick us off everybody . Welcome to this session we have reflection , exercise distractions and savvy goats , entrepreneurship is an adventure just like getting this audio so that this morning . So my name is Andrew , Eastman Roland's founder and Ceo of Western Learning and if you are joining us remotely please be aware that we encourage you to share your video , we will be reported and I'm here with a degree in the room to moderate and troubleshoot any technical issues . So with that I'll turn it over to our first speaker and so Andrew , if you could replace this document here for everyone to get a copy of it download it and then I can go back to my video . Yeah can you hear on your end ? Look can you get on your laptop though ? Yes . Can you can you take this off the screen ? Okay . Let me see if I can get it back since that came up . I can't find it now . Yeah , I had it on the screen and that word doc took its place and I can't find it . Okay . Mhm . Um Do you have it there locally on your laptop ? You can do it at this creature . See here this looks like it might be it . Okay . Um pdf So I Okay perhaps you can play this number five in the playlist Avery or Andrea . Alright . Are there any time ? I can't hear you very well . You're very echoey . Uh It's number five in the playlist . Every if you could play it . Mhm . Number five . That's it , That's number five . Yeah , that was never provided . Oh that's I'm sorry . That's just the that's not the video . Video . Yeah , it's not here under recordings any longer . I don't know where I could just go live with . I don't know , I don't know what else to do . Okay , let's do that . Anita , I can see a video on the on the folder list and I'm also able to play it . Could you play it please ? I can't do that because it's not on my list . Here you go . No that's not it . Video . Sorry , 20 minute video . Yes . The recordings . 20 minute recording . This is it Yeah . Okay . Can I play it ? Shall I play it ? Yes , I try . Mhm . Hello , I am dr Anita Rose , I am the assistant professor at florida Gulf Coast University at the dabbler and continually school of entrepreneurship and I am delighted to be here and to be able to share this wonderful reflective experience with you . So , I have been teaching now for and this particular reflective exercise for about 10 years actually 12 years now . I love the active learning and the applied evaluating and synthesis component that that includes course content . So I really love that part . I do really enjoy the marshmallow spaghetti challenge . It's a wonderful tower to be built and I do include that in my courses as well . And there are other tower activities that are fun to administer with students also . However , I've developed this particular reflective activity to really mimic real world scenarios . I've tailored it for formative assessments of specific course learning outcomes and I've included high levels of teen emotional social skills and team interpersonal process effectiveness . Those are areas of my research and I just love that this all comes together . Now I've been working on this course for many years and I have developed it over time and now I'm going to show you the steps so that you can administer this fun and engaging , reflective transformational activity . Okay , so let's go ahead and get started . Alright , so let's see how do we change slides ? Here we go . Okay , so the learning outcomes for this session for this activity that you'll be administering to your students . So creative and critical thinking , collaboration communications , certainly strategy and teamwork and time management . Now , those are also part of some of the other tall tallest tower type of projects . But I've really taken this to a totally different level where we've included really the emotional social intelligence portion and interpersonal process effectiveness . So I'm gonna go ahead and go into those components and I've also elevated the teamwork , that time management communication , all those parts . Uh and I can't wait to show you . Alright , so here what I start with is putting the supplies together for each team . And here I have five teams And it's very simple . I have 25 sheets of copy paper . 25 popsicle sticks , a roll of tape and a magic marker . Now these items could be changed out . They can be paper plates instead of copy paper , it could be um straws instead of popsicle sticks . It can be masking tape instead of scotch tape . And so and maybe some other type of utensil for marking and and that's fine . It's a flexible type of program which makes it really nice that you can you can change it up . I find this easy because copy paste paper is accessible to make . I have tried using this product with um with glue stick and it doesn't work all that well the tape seems to hold a bit better , but you can change it up to reflect whatever works for you . So , I had that put aside for the students . Now I have other items , other supplies on hand for the students as part of the project . And so , and it can be , this can be changed up as well . Uh , maybe I have some large paper clips , small paper clips or the alligator clips . I have some posted notes . I have some pencils or it can be just about anything that you happen to have on hand . And then I incorporate this within the memos for the students and I'll show you how that's done . Okay ? So , okay , So let's see . So here we are . We have the teams . I've instructed them that they are going to , Here we are . We're going to break out the teams into five or six students depending on the size of the entire class . And then I asked for one volunteer observer from each team . And then , so that reduces the class . The team size down 4-5 and four is ideal . But five is okay as well . And then I give them the instructions . I tell them that they're all working for the same architectural firm That they have 30 minutes to complete their tower project . And their task is to plan and build this tower . I the plan is to build the tallest tower that's freestanding , aesthetically pleasing and that's earthquake proof . I'll show you how that all comes together . So it sounds simple enough , right ? Uh not necessarily . So what I do is when I have the students in the planning stage , I asked them to elect a project manager come up with a team name and they have five minutes to do so you can see some what happens . You know , students get up out of their seats , they start , you know , uh start working on this project , down on their knees in this particular case so you can see there's they're engaged and they're happy and it's a fun experience for them . So now what I do though is I take the student observers for each team and we go usually right outside the classroom door or some private place where the teams cannot hear me have my meeting with them . And I provide them with a tallest tower observation survey and I explain to them what's going to happen , that they will be observing the team members during the project , that there will be numerous interruptions and also the most valuable member of each team will be unexpectedly moved to another team . Uh then I tell them that they will observe the team's reaction to the interruptions and the loss of their most valuable member . And then I asked them to go ahead and if you have any questions and so forth and maybe just one or two questions , they seem to laugh at the idea that there's going to be something fun going on and that they're privy to it and the team is not , so then they go in and then they have their clipboard with their survey and they can go ahead and start completing the information . So now what happens is they start building their tower right ? Well , basically one minute before the planning stage , I let them know there's one minute remaining , so I keep them alert as to the timetable as we're moving along . They start building their project , here is their tower and you can see that they're , they're engaged , they're all hands on and they're really working on it to make it the best that it can be . But what happens is five minutes into building the tower ? Yes , they have 30 minutes , but five minutes in there , provided with the memo . I hand that to the project manager for each team . And so in this particular case , I tailor this to the learning outcome for a specific course . This particular course is entrepreneurship and creativity and we're using a business model canvas . Uh it can be changed up to be anything that you would like , but I alert them that this is a crisis and they need to complete this . This needs to be completed . I tell them . And so then we wait and we watch to see what does the project manager do . Does the Project manager for each team completed themselves ? Do they delegated to another team member , um what is the procedure and then the Observer is documenting this information , So now we've had this interruption . Uh Normally what happens is the project manager will just put the memo down because they're so focused on the tower that they just set it down and then forget about it and they're right back into building the tower with the team . So then I have everyone stop a minute later , I see not much is happening with the memo , so I tell everyone they must stop building the tower , complete the memo , and then once they've completed the memo and brought the memo to me and me being the ceo I have my title , being the ceo the CFO every executive position there , Chief executive position for the firm . Alright , so then uh they complete the form once they've completed the form and hand it to me and it is correct , then they may resume building their tower , so this is fun , fun time and um they get a little stressed out because they can't build and they're waiting and they're trying to figure out how to get this done quickly and it takes time . Uh And then after the first memo is completed five minutes later they're back into building the tower again , I interrupt them with a second memo , a much lengthier memo , uh and it's very consuming , it's very detailed and it takes quite a bit of time to complete . But at the very bottom of the memo , the very last line explains to the teams that they don't have to complete all the items on this list . And only once have I ever had someone read the entire memo and say , oh my goodness , I don't have to do this at all , let's just go back to building the tower . So , and then again there's a third memo and 1/4 time prevails , so and then all these memos tie in course learning objectives , so that you can really have your formative assessment for your course learning outcomes . And so it makes it interesting and fun and they move forward with with building this tower , with all the interruptions that are going on . Now , what I do is halfway through , I tell them that I asked each project manager to point out their most valuable member , and then I switched them , as I had already mentioned earlier , I tell the Observer that that's what's going to happen . So I switch the team most valuable team members and that's very upsetting to the teams , they've lost their most valuable member . Now , that member goes to another team . How does that member react to a new team ? How does the member react for leaving the team ? How does the team react to the new member ? These are all really very common , real world scenarios , right ? We're working on a project , we have lots of interruptions and when we're working on a project with a team . Oftentimes someone gets promoted or they leave to take a job elsewhere . And so this , these are all real world scenarios which are fun and enjoyable to see from my point of view , a little difficult to master for the students and then their , you know , their emotional social skills shine or they might be frustrated and we talk about that after all . Right , so here we are , we move along , they're building the towers , they have those interruptions there , completing the memos here , as you can see , and then we get down to the very last . I remind them at the five minute point when there's five minutes remaining , I remind them again when there's three minutes , one minute and at the 32nd mark , what I do is I play Europe the final countdown , you can find it on YouTube . I started at the four minute time and run it for 30 seconds and the students are really energized by it . So here you can hear how it goes , wow , yeah , yeah . Is okay . So you get the idea , it's fun . They , they're energized by , I play that rather loudly in the classroom and the students really have a lot of fun with it . But here we are towards the end and when we get to that last moment , I tell them hands off some towers immediately fall , other towers are still standing and prevailing and then I asked them to bring their freestanding tower to a front table and here you can see I have two different groups here where they're putting their towers to the front table for ready for display . And then I have a moment where I ask them well which is the tallest , which is the most aesthetically pleasing . Before we have the earthquake test and that's a lot of fun . The students really enjoy it , you can see they're all standing around , they're having fun with it . Here are some examples of some of the towers and some of them are incredibly creative . Uh and here they are ready for earthquake testing . So here , now , you can see in the middle of an earthquake task , you can see , I'm enjoying this as much as they are getting ready to shake the tabletop to see which towers stand and the students are really thoroughly engaged . They really enjoy the process . The real lessons are not really , how tall can you build the tower ? It's really the wonderful reflective exercise . So , here what we do is I asked the student observers to report their findings and that's very revealing . Um often times they are very detailed and they really give a good accounting of what occurred with their team then after that , I uh , so we do that with all the observers one at a time . Then we have some reflection questions that can be presented in several different ways . One is live right then and there we can go over all the questions , some of the questions . Uh I can also , in addition , I have done , I have had an online component with this where I have students actually uh include their answers to these questions in an online format and we kind of can review them or they can just turn them into me . However , there's a lot of different opportunities here uh and so this is just a portion of it , I have an entire packet available for everyone , so you have all the instructions , you have all the memos , you have all the information to make this successful uh reflective activity for you . So now what have I found ? I found that collaboration uh really is a large component of this activity . You know , I've really presented this really nearly 100 times now and it has improved over time , but even though my instructions clearly state that everyone is working for the same organization , I have never experienced two or more teams joining forces , I'm very careful to tell them that it's not a competition in the beginning , that it is a that they are just working for the same organization . Uh but what I've also found is that since we talked about this during the reflective moments , I found that later activities , future activities , students do collaborate more with other team members and other students in the class . Really nice and isn't that important to collaborate with the entire company or your partners including everyone , leadership is another component that surfaces here . One is that many times the project manager will complete the memos themselves and someone else will step up from the team to take on that leadership role to move the project forward . And so it's interesting to see what dynamics happen there with leadership development , uh communication and critical thinking . Um really only a few times have I seen some teams all working together to complete the memo at once to move things along quickly quickly , but communicating and critical thinking to make things move along faster so they can get back to their project . The emotional social skills , you know , a well planned project typically experiences disruptions , all sorts of disruptions . Alright , students get annoyed about the disruption , disruptive menus and you know , losing a valuable team member . That's also a point of irritation for students . Uh they they often have a deep and thoughtful introspection on how they may have reacted more with more controlled emotions and I see that learning moving forward so that reflection has really had a lasting effect , a transformative effect and then I have the team interpersonal process effectiveness . So I have found repeatedly doing you know , offering this scenario this reflective exercise that the students really put all their efforts and well beyond what is expected into having stronger relationships within this team exercise . It's very interesting how that all comes together . Another wonderful aspect of this is that students will just say how wonderful it is to experience this , but also have the closeness of the class and lasting friendships . You know , I've had one student tell me . I feel like our class is like a family . We are so close . I mean that's really heartwarming and wonderful to hear . And the students walk away with long lasting friendships . It's really a wonderful experience . And I hope that you will consider in this opportunity for your students uh and they're reflective exercise . I really enjoyed this and I've enjoyed being here during the entire conference and seeing how many wonderful uh opportunities there are here for me to grow as well . So , thank you so much . Anita , thank you so much for sharing that . That was fantastic . And I know you've got some other materials and even another video to show . But I'm gonna suggest we come back to that for the participants so that we can leave time for the second presenter . That's sure this is the second video is really just a few seconds and it just kind of put it all together . So if I could just show that real quickly , that would be nice . I'm sorry again , I can't hear you . Sorry , you can't . Um can you hear me rob ? I can hear you . So can you can you play that other video ? It's only about 10 seconds . Yes . The number one we'll just see if I can do it real quick . Mm hmm . I mean , okay , so I'm sorry , you can't hear me . I'd love to answer some questions , but perhaps we can do that after we can hear you . Yeah , we'll take questions at the end . Thank you so much , Reggie . Yeah , I think it'll be fine to take questions in the end because I think there's a lot of overlap between what Anita is doing and what I'm doing . Um so um yeah , I think I'll start off with the with the presentation that I have . Um let me just put it on . Mhm . Here . Okay , so I guess you all can see the presentation . Yeah . Okay . So I start with this question for the audience and um and with the star mark here , when do you sort of do your reflective journals ? And I've just put an example of a 10 week course in in in an Engineering Bachelor Engineering School . Um and um this is where normally I would add these reflective journals , but where would you add ? Or I mean not where would you , but what do you do at the moment ? Mhm . People can write in the chat if they can access the chat or they can just speak out loud . No , there wasn't . I didn't do anything . Yes . Okay . So I haven't heard any feedback yet but that I don't know if if the , if the audio is clear , but in any case , what what we normally see is most reflective journals , they sort of end towards the end . Right . So after you've done the final design and that's when you sort of ask a reflective journal , it's it tends to be an individual exercise , you do it at the end of the course and you will at some point evaluate and then give them maybe some feedback . Um and this I mean standard practice for most courses , um and we wanted to sort of address that a little bit and see can you actually change this process of reflection and break it down ? What if you actually incorporate a reflection after every step in the course ? Right . And and and how would that sort of impact the end reflections ? I'm not saying we don't do the end reflection , but we do that , you know , as a build up . Um So that's um what was what was what I was interested in and we tried to sort of work with this kind of idea of , of having , I mean some courses , I know they run midterm reflections and then they sort of have end reflections , but we wanted to say , you know , what could you what if you actually had it during every significant milestone , for example , and this is where we sort of started working with this tool , So I use this tool , Savvy goat , which I think is a is a really fun narrative and I quickly tell you what it is um essentially Savvy Gold is like many other learning platforms out there , but I think what I liked about Savvy Gold was that it used sort of a stripped down approach because it didn't , it has project management , but it doesn't have everything the project management systems has , it has some things that learning management systems have , but it's not everything that it is just the basics like , you know , file uploads or whatever , same with journaling and Gamification and engagement systems . And I think this is what I liked that it was right in the center of all of this instead of had had sort of the core elements of all of these things , but it was still unique in its own way . But what , what , what was very unique for me was the fact that it focused on one thing and that was team learning instead of individual learning . And I think this is something that um in entrepreneurship , I'm quite um quite encouraging , you know , something that I'd like to encourage even more because I think entrepreneurship is a team activity and we all like to encourage that , but a lot of , you know , everything in the way standard courses are set up and the way a standard university also works , you know , grading systems , our individual assessment systems are completely individual and reflections are also tend to be individuals . So we wanted to see , could we actually do this in a , in a team process . So if I were to really summarize what savvy goat is , this Savvy goat is essentially a dynamic sort of gamified learning platform where student teams are now referred to as goats and educators as herders . Um , and and what's interesting is both of these guys will design map plan , execute reflect and incentivize their own learning journey while simultaneously following the pier goat climb . So that means the journey of the other goats as well . And what is interesting is that you have to climb this kind of mountains . So the goat has to climb the mountain and uh and everyone thinks initially it's a race , but then they realize it's not a race . It's actually , and you realize that depending on how you earn the points , but it's actually how savvy you are about it , which is why we use the terms of the goat , but the idea is that you have to be effective in designing your learning journey that fits your team's strengths the best . Right ? So , and I'll try and illustrate that a little bit here . Um so this is what exactly happens now , This is the student view , this is not the teacher view . So the teacher , for example , sees a different view , but the students see sort of the mountain with all the milestones that the teacher has set , right ? And the goat position on the mountains , shows their progress through the task . And for example , here you can see six teams which are represented as six goats are , are at the on the same task and the milestones are the orange circle . So these are sort of the critical milestones that you think you need them to , to to do and and reach right . Um and students can click on the microphone and get a quick overview of the journey ahead . However , what is interesting is that if for example the team decides to deviate and go a different path by adding their own task , they can actually do that and it will be visualized on this on this platform as a new pathway . So you can actually see separate pathways for the different teams if they decide to do that or they can follow the standard , you know , the well trodden path that every other goal for example is also following . Um and that and this is what will eventually ensure that they all reach the top , but the question is , do other goats try different things um then you have a leaderboard and this leaderboard shows this kind of , you know , uh the points that they earn based on the quality of the task that they submit . So every time they submit something , you sort of give them some points and you give them , if they take a detour , maybe you would actually be pleased with the detour and you give them some some some extra points instead . However , if you think the detour was unnecessary , you can actually even give them less points and therefore they sort of realize that okay , we don't just create detours for the sake of detours , you know , it has to be some quality in it . There's always a time where they're showing how much time is left until the next deadline . And , and what is interesting is that you lose a life and you have three lives that that you can use to progress in the mountain and you lose a life every time you miss the milestone . But what is interesting is it's not only a milestone of the teacher , but also if you set your own deadline , because this , the system works in terms of setting your own short deadlines as well . So let's say that you say , okay , we're going to talk to extra customers this week and we hope to be done by monday uh monday of next week and you set that deadline for yourself because you have to do that on the platform . And if you missed the deadline , you lose a life and you always need one active life to be able to progress on the mountain to be able to upload anything on the mountain . So what that does is it adds this kind of very interesting mechanic where you can't actually , um you know , you're , you're very careful of , of how you lose the , of how you use these lives that you have , but but of course if you lose lives and this is okay because you know , you missed the deadline , but you've got some good quality out of it and the teacher acknowledges that you get points for it . You can actually trade in some of those points to earn back lives and therefore allow you to actually make mistakes and learn from those mistakes and become better , so that's really what this , how this works , um , but but I'm more interested in of course reflections , so now what I was doing and this is just an example mountain climb of a three hour entrepreneurship boardgame exercise . Now , this is just a separate thing that I've , that I've run , just to show you that this can work in a either a semester structure or it can work in a , in a , in a three hour course or a three hour game run , like , like we did with this with this board game . Now this board game is essentially a very , is a very fixed activity , it's actually a physical activity , but you can see the mountain on the backdrop , there , on , on , on the image and what you then do is you try and um incentivize people to to progress also with the , with , with the board game . Now , what is happening here is that you will see that in this board game , these are the questions that they are trying to solve and they're trying to map the problem , you know , come up with solutions and and and do all of that , but every step has a reflection exercise on it . Now , what is interesting is that these reflection exercises have to be documented on the savvy gold app , which is then sort of accompanying them at the same time . Now what we realize when you do this and we talked to the team's later on is they said that it was fun to discuss and it was really great that they had all these great discussions about what to do and what not to do and they thought they were in agreement , but it's only when they had to write it down onto the savvy gold platform , they actually realized that they were maybe not in agreement , because maybe we just say Um put a summary reflection of say 50 words or 100 words of of your of your outcome of that particular step . And it's only when you write things down , do you realize that you may not necessarily be in agreement , because sometimes when you just talk , it may sound like you're in agreement , but it's only when you sort of try to document it that you realize , and this was one of the very critical outcomes that we got . And I think this happens also in sort of the long form courses where we also see this , so um this is again , it's not to pay attention to detail here , what is written , it's just a long semester course , right ? This is an entire semester . And what you can see here is this is a semester that that , that I'm running for for students in nanoscience where which is an entrepreneurship course and what you can see is that um it starts in february , it ends in uh in in May um and we have , we meet twice a week uh and then there is this milestone deadlines which are on savvy goats , so these are the , you know , the practice introduction and these are linked to the design thinking milestones , but at each of these steps , they actually have to reflect of all the steps that they have gone through here and they have to say what exactly happened here . And then of course , at the end of the course there's , there's an end of course self study on on on an individual reflection assignment as well that happens in the end . And what we realized is by structuring this kind of reflection in this particular way , the quality of reflections changed , but the teamwork process within the group also changed significantly and this for us was really the biggest value . So I would like to end with some , some questions that I think we and I can showcase a little bit more of the , of the platform , but it would be nice to have some discussion and the questions that I have for you here is that do you think this kind of progressive continuous process reflections are more valuable than end of term reflections ? Um And then what about individual versus team reflections ? What value do you see in team reflections ? And then when you add a layer of competition , do you think competition and reflection can go hand in hand ? Um so yeah , these are essentially my , my my slides , if I have a minute , I would like to quickly just show just how the platform can can do that , so I will quickly do that through sharing my screen , Just give me a second here . Okay , so you can see the screen now , so this is for example , this is actually a run at , I have running at Charles university , so the one that I was showing you was uh sorry , this one I wanted to show you , so there's a run that's currently going on at the University of Connecticut and what you see is this is where all the teams are listed you as a teacher have designed all the sort of the , the , the milestones and then you can see that there are reflection points that are added in between all of these milestones and this is what you see as a teacher , you can see all the dates and the deadlines that you that you are adding , but you can also , and the student teams can add their own deadlines , this is what the students see and what you can see here is um is the different teams and they have just called themselves these , these names and uh the fainting goats for example , there , which is the yellow team and if I highlighted that's the yellow path , so in this case they none of them sort of deviated from their own pathways , but they all had very interesting reflections and that's also why they actually sort of sort of one , the one the challenge , if I , if I go back and maybe go to se codification and look at just an example , prototype reflection , so when we ask them , so this is about the technique , so they're , they're talking about it as a technique , but if they , if you ask them something more specific and this could be something like the , the idea that reflection and I just look at this one , oh sorry , ah the fainting goats , that's the one I had to look at , so what you see is they've uploaded something and you can click on the document and it just uploads on the side . Um but what normally happens is that you can actually see what they are reflecting and so for example , what was the most challenging part of completing this milestone and what they say is that um you know , it's the most challenging was the revised project proposal and and how do you receive feedback from professors and , and it was interesting because the challenge we gave them was actually how do you think , how could you work with gamifying , savvy goat itself ? So it was , it was an interesting challenge that we , we gamified the platform and we gave them as that as a challenge . So , but yeah , this just to give you a brief view and , and maybe I think it's good to leave some time for reflection discussion . Great ! Thank you both so much . I don't know if you can hear us , but our audio on our end is not so great . So I'm gonna ask you guys to run the questions if you'd like to share one in the chat . Um invite our speakers to just jump in and answer Thank you so much . I saw a question here regarding , let me just see if I can find it now why I lost the team's most valuable member . So uh the reason what I've done there is um I don't they don't lose their valuable member , they're replaced with another team's valuable number . And so it's a bit chaotic and they lose the person that they're used to working with during the process and they obtained someone new another valuable member from another team . And then there's an adjustment to that . And so how is that ? Um emotionally and socially accepted by the person being transplanted to another team ? And the team itself , are there any other questions ? So I can actually say one thing at this point um when I actually read your exercise Anita um it was interesting because um and this is just a coincidence if I was present at U . S . S . B . In person , my aim was to actually have run a tower exercise for the participants in the room . But the difference would have been I would have run the tower exercise build the tower and uh and then asked them to actually reflect on the cervical platform at every step . And and that was what was quite interesting because and I didn't even know that Anita was actually going to talk about a tower exercise . Uh so so that was just you know , an interesting thing , but the idea here was that when we add these kind of team reflections , uh we sort of see things move very differently as opposed to individual reflections . Um and I think that's also because teams maybe don't discuss as much after they have done a task , um and I think you are able to do that at the end of the of the exercise , but I wonder if if if we didn't do that , like , you know what the outcome would be , for example . So , I wonder if you have some thoughts around that Anita . So you're saying if you were to have reflections during the process ? Yeah , I'm not so sure that would work that well with the way I have it , I mean , you may be able to design it differently where that might work , but the the whole idea of the chaos and the time management is part of the project , so uh it makes it difficult for them to move forward , like having a project , let's say we have a project that we're working on and we have constant interruptions , we have emails and phone calls , we have someone coming into our office , you know , we have constant up , that's what it's like in the real world , and that's what I was trying to convey to the students and , you know , have them experience what it's like Working on a project , and of course this is only a 30 minute time span , whereas we may be going days or weeks on a project , but they get the idea and so , but and then because the observer is documenting all the information they're reminded about how they really reacted to certain situations , so they do have that reflective moment in past tense . Mhm , yep . But I also like your uh this savvy goat , I really want to get into this and understand it better , and I think that I because I love games and fun things in the classroom and students really resonate with it and they love it . So I'm really looking forward to looking into this much further and seeing how I can utilize it in my courses . So , one of the tests we did with students was especially the University of Connecticut , because it was a Gamification course , Gamification for business . And in that course , we actually asked the students , um without showing , I mean , we showed savvy goat as a , as a challenge and say , okay , how would you gamify this ? And what was interesting is 80% or 90% of all the ideas they came up with is actually already in the platform , so , but but that was actually you know , very , very good feedback for us , but they also came up with additional things that we hadn't thought about and that was you know like um adding badges and stuff like that because apparently they really um students really do like this kind of stuff . So I just saw a question on the chat that's come up um post exercise team assessment as a student has been a number of teams . I can see how intermittent team assessments could increase accountability from our group members . Yes , I do agree ruth that is something we have seen . Um so one of the things that we found , especially with savvy goat and other things is that it prevents some of these , you know , Team Lagarde's or people who just sort of don't do much while working in the team because they actually have to be active . And um one thing that I don't know if you realize but one thing that's a video does very well is that and every task that you do , you have to write down who participated in the task and who was the leader because it's only the leader who of that task that can submit the task . So it's it's a way to really get more engagement from teams as well . So I love the app component to it as well . Thank you so much . Yeah , well I think that's what we have time for I guess . So I'll leave it to Andrea Yes , thank you so much for sharing that . I only wish I could have heard it better but I'm glad that you all online did here as well . So thanks to our speakers so much and thanks to all of you for coming to use Osby , I think this is the last official session so round of applause for our final speakers . Thank you so much . Thank you so much . Bye . Okay , goodbye .