2011 Roundtable at Stanford: Redefining K-12 Education in America - Free Educational videos for Students in K-12 | Lumos Learning

2011 Roundtable at Stanford: Redefining K-12 Education in America - Free Educational videos for Students in k-12

2011 Roundtable at Stanford: Redefining K-12 Education in America - By Lumos Learning

00:04 Stanford University . Ladies and gentlemen , please welcome our
00:10 Stanford Roundtable Panelists and our moderator , Charlie Rose .
00:15 Thank you . Thank you very much . Mhm .
00:20 It's Ah , thank you . This is the closest
00:26 I will ever get to being on center court of
00:29 a great N C double 18 . So I'm thrilled
00:32 to be back . A couple of years ago when
00:34 President Hennessy said to me , Would you come out
00:37 ? And I came out for a union weekend .
00:39 Uh , we had a very good time . And
00:41 then he said at that time , in answer to
00:44 my question , how did I do ? He said
00:47 to me , pretty good for a first time out
00:50 , but you need to do to In order to
00:52 fully show your commitment to Stanford University , I said
00:56 , I'll come back if you give me a great
00:58 panel . He said , That's a deal . I
01:01 am pleased to be here because it gives me the
01:04 opportunity when I am the week before . People know
01:08 that I'm going to be away for the weekend and
01:10 they'll say to me , Where are you going ?
01:12 And I will say to them , I'm going to
01:15 the reunion at Stanford . You got it for a
01:21 moment . they will look at me like you went
01:24 to Stanford . I let him think it . See
01:27 before I say anything , you know , they'll say
01:29 . But like Cory , Booker went to Stanford and
01:32 he's a Rhodes scholar . That's where they train Rhodes
01:35 scholars , and they create founders of great companies like
01:38 Google . You went to Stanford ? They don't really
01:40 say that , but I know that's what they're thinking
01:42 . So for a week I lived with the idea
01:45 that people thinking that I went to Stanford University when
01:47 the closest I get is to come here and be
01:49 with you on Reunion weekend . But I am thrilled
01:52 to be and thank you very much . Let me
01:56 let me . Uh huh . We have this extraordinary
02:02 panel and and a couple of them went to Stanford
02:05 . Uh , Salman Khan , as you know ,
02:06 from the Khan Academy . What a remarkable person he
02:09 is . Ah , yeah . I just realized I'm
02:15 not doing this in the order that they asked me
02:16 to see . There's a notion that you always want
02:19 to keep them on their toes . Alright , second
02:22 is Cory Booker , mayor of Newark . Mhm .
02:27 Yeah . John Hennessy . Do you know is that
02:30 your great president ? Uh then Kim Smith . Uh
02:34 huh . Co founder Not only , uh , bellwether
02:38 education partners , but also one of the original founders
02:41 of Teach for America and Claude Steele , the new
02:43 dean of your school of education . Mhm . And
02:49 you know Reed Hastings from Netflix . What a panel
02:54 . Um , we , uh we're all thrilled to
02:58 be here , and I begin with the president and
03:00 ask him , in a sense , of each of
03:02 the Panelists frame for us , the issues for education
03:07 K through 12 . A title here is Education Nation
03:10 two point . Oh , redefining K 12 education before
03:15 it redefines us . So , Charlie , I think
03:19 we have a real irony in this country we have
03:22 . What is it widely admired as the best higher
03:25 education system in the world . At the same time
03:28 , we have a K 12 system which is failing
03:30 far too many of our younger people , especially those
03:33 in poorer neighborhoods who are simply not getting the education
03:37 that they need to get the jobs that will enable
03:40 them to live the American lifestyle . That's what we
03:43 fundamentally have to fix . And we've got to think
03:46 about it in new ways . If there's any light
03:49 on the horizon for me . It's that more people
03:52 are aware of this problem and are concerned about this
03:55 problem . There are more parents that are activated and
03:57 that at least gets us on the road to discussing
04:00 how we fundamentally change the system . We have Kim
04:04 define the crisis for us and the opportunities . I
04:07 think we're at a real inflection point for K 12
04:09 education , and we have to decide if we're willing
04:12 to let go of our conception of what it used
04:16 to be and create a whole new way . And
04:18 I think President Hennessy's right . There's a huge awareness
04:21 there's an engagement from communities . We have huge opportunities
04:24 with charter schools to allow people to express their diversity
04:28 by having different kinds of schools and by getting management
04:32 and teachers and kids and parents all working together to
04:35 create great schools . I know we'll hear from Saul
04:37 in a moment because I think there's a huge technology
04:39 opportunity to create , um , a much more productive
04:44 system . We've been doing things the same way for
04:47 100 years and using the same assessments and the same
04:50 system . So we are at this giant inflection point
04:54 for the whole system , and we have to figure
04:57 out how to get all the puzzle pieces to come
04:58 together . And so my lenses through education entrepreneurs like
05:02 Teach for America or Sol or the charter school operators
05:05 like Aspire , so we can talk more about those
05:07 . But why ? I'm excited about the changes .
05:10 These entrepreneurs are showing us a whole new way ,
05:14 and they're just redefining our sense of what is possible
05:17 . And if we empower them and engage them ,
05:19 then from them will learn how to redesign the whole
05:23 system . And that's a kind of scary thing .
05:25 So it takes all of us to figure that out
05:28 . But I'm really hopeful . I'm really hopeful .
05:32 Yeah , I completely agree with Kim . I I
05:34 think the you know , whenever you you hear about
05:36 the whole education debate and everything , it becomes very
05:38 depressing sometimes . And people , you know , the
05:40 achievement gap and all of this and and and there's
05:43 a lot of inertia in the system , and how
05:44 do you kind of move that ? But I think
05:47 what's really neat about where we are in history I
05:49 think it is an inflection point is that the gatekeepers
05:51 are going away and education . It looks like they're
05:53 serious gatekeepers there . But I think because of technology
05:56 and the way society is changing , you see that
05:58 there's ways to get around the gatekeeper . You're seeing
06:00 it in the Arab spring . You're seeing it with
06:02 all of the new technologies came out . You see
06:05 it with things like Khan Academy . And so even
06:07 though it might seem very dark right now in terms
06:09 of a lot of the statistics we here and all
06:11 of that , I think in the next 10 years
06:13 we're going to see some of the most optimistic ,
06:15 promising things and and really , I I agree with
06:18 him . I think it will be rethought from the
06:20 ground up . All of our core assumptions will be
06:22 rethought . It and I think in very positive ways
06:25 read similar to my co Panelists , technology and charter
06:30 schools , too . Big change vectors Technology is going
06:33 around the system through the system , speeding it up
06:36 , allowing software based individualized tutoring . It's going to
06:40 be hugely transformative over the next 20 years . Charter
06:44 schools , it's nonprofit public schools . It's getting away
06:47 from elected school boards . The fundamental problem with school
06:51 districts today are not the people there find people .
06:54 It's the elected school board model . If our corporations
06:57 had elected school boards , they would operate as mediocre
07:01 as most school districts . And the problem is the
07:04 elected school board . And the solution is getting into
07:08 non profit . Like Stanford . Yeah , you know
07:11 , great individual operations like Stanford and allow schools to
07:15 do that . And so public schooling is going to
07:17 become non profit public schooling run by non profits called
07:21 charter schools . That leads a perfect segue to you
07:24 , Mayor . Uh , well , first of all
07:26 , just some small additions to my Panelist . So
07:29 first of all in the presidency and I were talking
07:31 about this . We actually have a crisis in higher
07:33 ed in America that is of extreme proportion . And
07:38 we're gonna lose our position as the education center of
07:41 the globe on the higher education . The other thing
07:43 ? We're talking k through 12 problems to come back
07:45 to higher education . Yes , the other issues .
07:47 We're talking k through 12 . If that's the conversation
07:49 we're having in America , we're never going to fix
07:51 the problem . Pre K is so critical . What
07:53 happened ? 0 to 6 . We must start having
07:55 a conversation about , um and so from , uh
08:00 , from 0 to 18 is to me that the
08:04 issues are very clear . We are seeing inordinately high
08:08 crime rates . We're seeing horribly underperforming GDP in our
08:12 country . Uh , we're seeing this nation rapidly fall
08:16 behind in its amongst its competitor countries . Uh ,
08:19 I'm not satisfied that the country really realizes the greatest
08:23 national security threat bar . None in America is the
08:26 dumbing down of our population and I So , in
08:33 cities all across America we are We have growing masses
08:37 of our population uh , that are hitting 18 1920
08:41 21 have very little opportunities , uh , to make
08:45 a living for their families in this economy because they
08:47 can't plug into a knowledge based economy . And given
08:50 that level of crisis , what bothers me is not
08:53 , uh I was talking to some of my Panelist
08:54 beforehand , and it's not the blockers , and there
08:57 are a lot of blockers , and there are a
08:58 lot of very dumb ways that we're organizing education ,
09:01 in my opinion , seeing what pragmatically works , not
09:03 emotionally not left , right , but just pragmatically ,
09:05 what works . But really , the crisis , I
09:07 think , is the fact that we do not have
09:09 more outrage and engagement by the population as whole As
09:12 King said , It's not the vitriolic words and violent
09:15 actions of the bad people . It's the silence and
09:17 inaction of the majority of Americans on this problem .
09:22 All right , then what is it necessary ? What
09:26 is required to stimulate so that they are involved ,
09:29 engaged and , uh , in the streets , so
09:32 to speak well again , It's this idea in America
09:36 that is so anti American that if I can just
09:39 get my family , they're good education . If I
09:41 can just get my kids into Stanford , whatever that
09:44 , we're gonna be okay . But now , more
09:46 than ever , there is a powerful interdependency in this
09:49 country where what's happening to that Latino kid at a
09:53 Thurgood Marshall High School here in San Francisco ? What's
09:55 happening to that African American kid at Malcolm X ?
09:57 Shabazz in Newark is directly linked to the destiny of
10:01 your Children right now , because the majority of the
10:03 American workforce , the majority of the American workforce ,
10:06 very soon we'll be minorities , and the powerful racial
10:10 achievement gap means that the workers of a few years
10:13 from now the whole GDP , the success of our
10:15 country is going to be dependent upon a population that's
10:17 undereducated and people who do not graduate from high school
10:21 have dramatically higher rates of imprisonment have dramatically higher rates
10:24 of pulling down on social services have dramatically higher rates
10:27 of healthcare needs . Our economy will will run into
10:31 the ground . And so this awareness is got to
10:34 be made and there are strategies . And this is
10:37 where Reed and I were talking . I could take
10:38 you to Newark , New Jersey , right now and
10:40 show you the highest performing schools in the state of
10:44 New Jersey because they've just gotten rid of things that
10:46 are . And again , this is a technical term
10:48 that the Dean will know that they teach at here
10:51 Sanford School of Education . They're just doing things that
10:54 are stupid and and so and so stupid as this
10:59 stupid is running an education system where you still have
11:03 kids going to school in the same year schedule that
11:05 we did in the agrarian age , when we all
11:08 know that if you want to be successful in this
11:10 world , you've got to work harder and work longer
11:12 , and our competitive nations have gotten that . But
11:14 we still have kids , you know . A Rahm
11:16 Emanuel was going crazy when he became mayor he goes
11:18 , How can my kids be getting out of school
11:20 at two o'clock in the afternoon or or these early
11:23 hours ? So we've got to start doing the things
11:25 that my successful schools are doing if you go to
11:27 school today on a Saturday in Newark , New Jersey
11:30 , the high performing schools have mandatory math classes on
11:33 Saturdays , and they're usually , as you know ,
11:35 in the schools of innovation that are breaking out of
11:37 the traditional models like often seen in charter schools .
11:40 All right , uh , the steel that brings me
11:42 to you . I don't know whether you're part of
11:44 the establishment or not , Uh , but you're certainly
11:47 the cutting edge of looking at where we are and
11:50 where we need to go . Taken in the context
11:52 of what people have said before , Um , what
11:55 would you add to it ? Yeah , I would
11:57 really underscore everything people have said . I do think
12:00 we're at an inflection point a particular moment . I
12:03 mean , in my relatively long life , I have
12:06 never seen as broadly disseminated appreciation of the value of
12:10 education and how critical it is to the quality of
12:13 our society . I've never experienced a moment like this
12:15 . I think it's I was just saying backstage .
12:17 I think it's almost as important to me is the
12:19 fact that Obama was elected as the as the president
12:22 . It's a real moment of , of to appreciate
12:25 to note . I think it comes about from what
12:29 Cory was just saying , that we recognize our interdependence
12:32 with communities that we haven't always seen as being connected
12:36 to that our fate was connected to their fate .
12:39 And I think we we do much more broadly appreciate
12:42 that , uh , one thing in this debate that
12:44 I might stress and maybe this comes from my Dean
12:47 Lee position . But I do think we know a
12:50 lot about education , and we do a tremendous job
12:52 of it in a lot of places in this society
12:55 , so it isn't a completely dark picture . Our
12:59 higher education system , as President Hennessy said , is
13:02 is the best in the world and I think it's
13:05 my personal opinion . But I think it's going to
13:07 take a long time for other societies to to to
13:10 create institutions as powerful as ours are at that level
13:15 . And I also think in a lot of K
13:17 through 12 schools , we do a good job we
13:19 do have A . There are a lot of schools
13:21 in this area , lots of areas . They unfortunately
13:25 tend to be in middle class and above . And
13:28 that's what we're , uh , in an important way
13:30 concerned about about here . We want to transfer the
13:33 skills and knowledge that we have in and that we
13:37 used so effectively in those schools to schools in lower
13:40 income communities , our inner cities or rural areas that
13:43 are deprived . And that , I think , is
13:45 the challenge . As as the dean of the school
13:48 of education , I think we know a lot .
13:50 I'm excited by this . What I regard as essentially
13:54 political movement to open up schools to change . I
13:58 think that is a That's what enables this moment and
14:02 and I , as a dean of education , would
14:04 like to see our our knowledge creators , producers join
14:08 that movement and contribute to it . There is clearly
14:11 a political movement to change education in your judgment .
14:14 Yes , I definitely believe that I think of the
14:17 charter movement I think of as a as a as
14:20 a movement that represents a real change . So I
14:23 come back and then I'd like to all of you
14:24 to to not just wait for my question but respond
14:27 to what other Panelists have said . Uh , it
14:29 raises the big question that's always at the center of
14:32 talks about educational reform , which is the teachers unions
14:36 . President Hennessy . Uh , so I think we
14:39 do have some challenges there , Charlie , If you
14:41 look at the countries that are leading in terms of
14:44 how they're young people are doing their teacher corps largely
14:48 comes from the top quartile of college graduates . For
14:52 better or worse , in the United States , most
14:54 of our teachers come from the bottom quartile of college
14:56 graduates . And why were partly to blame for this
14:59 ? We have not made the teaching professional profession a
15:04 profession . We've not treated like people like professionals .
15:09 Mhm . That's what we need to do . We
15:12 need to treat them as professionals , hold them accountable
15:15 , expect them to have high standards , evaluate them
15:18 . But we also need to pay them and treat
15:20 them as if they're professional . Mhm . Yeah ,
15:27 there's also the issue . Go ahead , read .
15:30 So you know , in reform circles , there's often
15:33 a lot of tension about unions . But fundamentally ,
15:36 unions are not the problem with American education , and
15:41 the reason I'm so confident of that is the strongest
15:44 unions in the nation are in New York , New
15:47 Jersey , California and the weakest unions are the Southern
15:52 Belt . And if it was true that Mississippi's education
15:55 system kicked everybody else's ass , you might say ,
15:59 Oh , weak union high productivity . Okay . But
16:03 in fact , the northern Massachusetts , the high high
16:06 union states do the best in the nation in education
16:10 . So there's absolutely no correlation . And fundamentally ,
16:13 unions are a symptom of bad management . If you
16:18 work in a system with bad management , you want
16:20 protections . And because of the elected school board and
16:24 the rapid turnover in urban districts , not so much
16:27 in suburban but in urban districts you get a constant
16:30 flow of new superintendents and relative chaos and management .
16:34 And because of that , if you're a teacher ,
16:35 you really want civil service protections that unions provide .
16:39 And so you have to think of unions . It's
16:41 a symptom of bad management . Bad management comes from
16:45 the elected school boards and the rapid turnover Alright ,
16:49 capacity unions . It isn't the unions per se .
16:52 It is , um , what underlies their collective bargaining
16:56 agreements , which is something that pervades our system ,
16:59 which is the desire to treat everyone the same right
17:02 , which is the way the compensation is handled .
17:04 How many years you've been there , Um , and
17:06 to have sort of one answer right ? So it's
17:08 the collective bargaining agreements are dysfunctional to reads point .
17:11 Other states just have the same norms , even if
17:14 it's not because of the union . And that's what
17:17 I think we have to change . Is this cultural
17:19 belief that the point is for everyone to get the
17:22 same and to begin to envision a system where we
17:26 can acknowledge our communities are different ? They're very diverse
17:29 . Kids learn differently . Teachers like to teach differently
17:33 . We invested at new schools in the whole portfolio
17:35 of charter systems . Some are project based learning .
17:38 Some are frankly look like Catholic schools . They're very
17:41 direct instruction , and each of those can be successful
17:45 . But they have to be allowed to do things
17:47 differently . And the management , the governance , the
17:49 teachers , the kids all have to want to be
17:52 in that environment . And so it isn't the unions
17:55 , exactly . It's this pervasive culture that you see
17:58 manifested in collective bargaining agreements , right . But it
18:01 goes well beyond that to this mistaken belief we should
18:04 want everyone to do the same thing . We have
18:07 to get beyond that and figure out how to have
18:09 a much more diverse system . All right , let's
18:12 let's stay with this point . The point of management
18:15 . Uh , Mayor Booker , is it is that
18:16 you have a situation in New Jersey which is different
18:19 . Mayor Bloomberg gained control over the school system .
18:23 You , the state , as I understand it in
18:24 New Jersey , has more control than you do .
18:27 Well , look , I I see the insanity and
18:29 reads pointed out , I don't want to belabor the
18:30 point , which is that you have in huge cities
18:34 . You have massive committees , uh , that are
18:37 governing school systems . It's not the optimal way to
18:39 to govern a school system with these large committees .
18:43 I I got elected in my city with tens of
18:44 thousands of votes . Our school board people can get
18:48 elected with 2 to 3000 votes . Very low turnout
18:51 often , uh , again that that our people have
18:54 a lot of different interests , and it's hard to
18:56 make bold , dramatic decisions to move a district in
18:59 a different way . It's not the optimal way ,
19:01 but I like the dialogue that was going on also
19:03 and I really love the points that were made ,
19:05 which which to me point to a bigger problem we
19:08 have when it comes to education . Reform is that
19:11 all of us get obsessed with thinking that there's one
19:13 answer or one solution and often want to just vilify
19:16 one group . If it wasn't for the unions ,
19:19 if it wasn't for the politicians , if it wasn't
19:21 for this , and it creates a sort of cognitive
19:23 laziness where we just hold on to this one idea
19:26 . And read pointed out , The hypocrisy of this
19:28 is that in right to work states and other states
19:31 , they have the same education problems that we have
19:34 . But at the same time , you also have
19:35 to say we ought to take responsibility . It doesn't
19:37 make sense . Then , on the first day of
19:39 school , I went to Louise A . Spencer School
19:41 in Newark , New Jersey , talk to the teacher
19:43 who had to do layoffs and , unfortunately , the
19:45 first teachers that they laid off for his two best
19:47 teachers because they were the last ones hired now ,
19:50 now the first , the last ones higher , and
19:52 they were the first ones fired . So at the
19:54 end of the day , I'm what I'm hoping in
19:55 my city as we take on a bold approach to
19:57 try to reform education is that I can get everybody
20:00 out of the blame game and just pointing fingers at
20:02 individuals . All of us come together constructively to find
20:06 a way to deal with this problem . I could
20:08 not get rid of unions in my police department ,
20:10 but I could sit down with them and say it
20:11 makes no sense . Um , and I'm gonna fight
20:13 you on this to have detectives in my gang task
20:16 force working Monday through Friday , 9 to 5 .
20:19 I don't know what city everybody's from , but the
20:21 gangs weren't working 9 to 5 . So So gags
20:25 don't punch a clock . No , they don't .
20:27 I wish everybody got off at five . We can
20:28 just roll , relax and go home . Um so
20:32 So at the end of the day , we have
20:33 to start letting the data drive the data , drive
20:38 our decisions and go simply on what works in Newark
20:42 , New Jersey , there are islands of educational excellence
20:46 that our charter that are magnet , that our district
20:49 and what is the one thing that they also share
20:51 , and that's that's the problem There is not one
20:54 thing that's not teaching . It's not good principles ,
20:57 not technology . It's not socio . You know .
21:00 The best thing I can say about it is that
21:01 there's different cultures in those schools that support different practices
21:06 . Until what my philosophy I have a sense of
21:09 urgency is , let's give those people who have mastered
21:12 that creation of culture and those changes the ability to
21:15 expand . Let's as a community stop being damned by
21:18 low expectations and tolerance and stop tolerating failure and hopefully
21:23 have those islands of excellence expand the hemispheres of hope
21:26 and squeeze out what doesn't work and stop being so
21:28 aligned to failure . All right , so let's let's
21:30 address this idea of a culture that promotes quality education
21:34 k through 12 . Yeah , I know . And
21:38 And to answer that and to follow up on ,
21:39 I mean one thing that that we think a lot
21:41 about what we're trying to do is I think what
21:45 everyone mentioned is is super important , and I think
21:47 there's a lot to be said about the charter movement
21:48 and the culture of schools . But I think way
21:50 too much of the debate about reforming education is on
21:54 the educators the administrators , the politicians , and it's
21:57 amazing how little you hear about the students themselves in
22:01 this in this debate and , you know , just
22:04 kind of a point in the example we've we're trying
22:07 to experiment . Most of our users are random people
22:09 around the world , but we're starting experiment . How
22:11 can this be used in a classroom ? And we
22:13 visited hi good charter schools in Oakland , where they
22:16 had eight graders and , you know , they had
22:19 better results than their than the control groups and the
22:21 public schools and all the rest . But our team
22:24 visited that classroom . It was an algebra classroom ,
22:27 and we observed just , you know , you walk
22:30 in there for 20 minutes . We observed these algebra
22:33 in algebra . They had trouble multiplying . They had
22:36 trouble dividing decimals . And I don't care what you
22:39 do to the administrator . I don't care if you
22:40 have a PhD with the teacher . If you try
22:42 to teach that student algebra right now , at that
22:44 point in time , they're not going to learn algebra
22:46 . You've lost them before . You've lost them before
22:48 you and and and and and what ? What we
22:50 say , you know . And there's an opportunity here
22:52 because the traditional model is Let's fix . Let's fix
22:57 the amount of time you have to learn something and
22:58 you move on and you kind of move lockstep and
23:00 and what's variable is how well you learn it .
23:03 And so that student , I'm sure , just got
23:04 passed on year after year , getting C's and D's
23:07 . But that's a passing grade and had these huge
23:09 gaps in the knowledge . And I say , What
23:11 you make fixed is mastery of a subject , and
23:13 what you make variable is how long you have to
23:15 learn . This is really cool problem . I think
23:19 . You know , I think there is a cultural
23:21 value that great schools share , which is a focus
23:24 on student achievement to the best of ability of every
23:27 single student . And that's what they share , whether
23:29 it's teachers , technology , support for the student outside
23:33 the classroom , longer school days , particularly for disadvantaged
23:36 kids who come in starting so far behind . But
23:39 the and what's the end result for good schools ?
23:41 They produce students who really except it's an obvious question
23:44 . How do you measure student achievement ? It's not
23:47 such an obvious question . I think we have become
23:51 trapped to some extent in the use of standardized testing
23:55 as the only way to measure student achievement . It's
23:59 one way . It's like saying we accept students at
24:01 Stanford just by looking your S a T scores in
24:03 the top s A . T scores . That doesn't
24:05 make a great learning community . It doesn't necessarily help
24:08 us pick the very best students who will go on
24:10 to do great things with their lives and make the
24:12 most of their education . We need a more well
24:14 rounded way to evaluate our students . I got into
24:17 Stanford because there were 416 104.2 yards per carry ,
24:21 1600 receiving yards . Um , and it was okay
24:26 . It worked out okay , So I'm glad that
24:29 we use data to drive the decision . The road
24:31 missions , um , and the roads committee like that
24:34 . They like that . They like that as well
24:35 . So I think that nobody is saying that there's
24:40 a big obsession with testing right now , but nobody
24:43 that I know of , especially in my city as
24:45 we look at this thinking that testing should be the
24:47 only criteria you use with which to evaluate . It
24:50 has to be a part of a larger picture .
24:53 But we're still doing it . I mean , no
24:54 Child Left Behind were stuck on a model , which
24:56 is only a partial measure of kids success . Want
25:00 to weigh in on assessments and No Child Left Behind
25:03 . So the problem with No Child Left Behind ?
25:05 What was great about it is it made us recognize
25:08 the achievement gap , which is huge , right ?
25:10 We had to admit that that what looks like a
25:12 successful school might really be doing a disservice to low
25:16 income kids and minority kids . So that was a
25:17 major achievement . What was bad about it is it
25:20 continued a culture of compliance where you just check the
25:24 box and they take the test and you do what
25:25 it says . And that's the like , gear grinding
25:29 change we're going through and schooling right now where we
25:31 have to leave behind compliance and move toward performance .
25:35 And what I would say about assessments , which is
25:37 sort of what both of you are saying is the
25:39 problem isn't the idea of having an assessment if you
25:42 trust it and you believe it's measuring what you care
25:44 about . Lots of people take the AP exams and
25:47 think they're great . It's that we have not invested
25:49 in great assessments . So we're at this point right
25:52 now where we want to become more performance or we
25:56 want to use the data . We just legitimately want
25:58 to know what works , and we have assessments and
26:01 a mode of assessment . I mean , how many
26:03 people in the audience use the number two pencil ?
26:06 All the hands are going to go up right .
26:07 We still do that for more than 50 years .
26:11 So we have to simultaneously invest in much better ,
26:14 richer assessments . That technology can let us do to
26:17 go back to sales point about mastery . So my
26:20 plea would be , Let's not have a knee jerk
26:22 anti assessment reaction . Let's say the test we've been
26:26 using aren't good enough now that we're finally ready to
26:30 really measure how we're doing . So teachers know how
26:32 they're doing and kids know how they're doing . We
26:34 got to get some better assessments quickly because we don't
26:37 we don't have them . It's also what I was
26:39 saying . This is the brilliance I think of .
26:41 What I was doing is the best schools that use
26:43 assessments in Newark . They're not for some punitive measure
26:46 . At the end of a year , they're actually
26:48 to help the teacher get better and grow . So
26:50 at the end of the introduction of a concept ,
26:51 you can get immediate feedback on 90% of the class
26:54 . Get this and those 10 that didn't what's the
26:56 strategy to help it or did only 10% of the
26:58 class . And we've got to change our approach to
27:00 look at the best schools . My last thing on
27:01 assessment , like the Denver School of Science and Technology
27:04 . It's real time assessments . And not only is
27:07 the teacher getting that information , but the student is
27:09 , and that's an incredibly empowering experience for student to
27:12 say . Well , that's cool . I mastered those
27:14 four . I'm struggling on this one . I want
27:16 to focus on this one underappreciated going . You know
27:21 , I saw you earlier and I didn't have it
27:23 . You have to get to you . I was
27:24 just going to underscore the importance of culture to a
27:26 want to distract us from this assessment point because I
27:29 know we've moved on a bit . Now we can
27:31 always come back Well , we can always come back
27:33 to that . But one of the more interesting areas
27:35 of research in the literature was a number of years
27:38 ago , somebody going out into low income communities and
27:42 finding out what schools works . What were the characteristics
27:44 of schools that worked ? It was called the Effective
27:47 Schools Literature . So it starts with that , finding
27:50 a bright spot and then and then detailing . And
27:52 there's a very clear set of , of , of
27:55 , of of ideas there , you know , you
27:56 have to have a clear mission . Uh , you
27:59 have to have high expectations . You have to offer
28:02 time on task and you have to have a well
28:04 ordered , uh , instruction system . And you have
28:06 to work for good relationships with parents and so on
28:10 . Is it a pretty clear list of these things
28:12 ? So again , I wouldn't want to leave the
28:14 idea that school culture is in a a mysterious zone
28:17 . I think we do have some good strategies for
28:20 for how to approach it . It's much like approaching
28:23 a good , uh , culture in a company or
28:25 a medical practice . I mean , uh , these
28:28 are the general goals that that you have to have
28:31 and try a lot of things to , uh ,
28:33 to go at them . Organizational . It's not specific
28:37 to school districts right there . Properties have a good
28:39 organization And so the thing to keep in mind is
28:41 there's these two reform movements . Charter schools and technology
28:45 and charter schools are a US specific approach to trying
28:49 to get the conditions right for good cultures and for
28:52 cultures to grow unified mission . All of the sense
28:55 that we have technology is a much more radical view
28:58 because , frankly , we need every kid in Brazil
29:01 to get a college education . We need every kid
29:03 in South Africa to get a college education to It's
29:06 not us against the world . It's how do we
29:09 rise The level of education through the world and the
29:12 power of technology is to provide that . So you
29:15 know how many generations of teacher development is it going
29:19 to take in Nigeria to have a great teaching core
29:21 ? Many And technology has the chance to leapfrog that
29:25 if we can get the right lessons . The second
29:27 part of our technology is individualization . When I was
29:30 a high school math teacher , my biggest frustration was
29:33 exactly what call reference saw referenced . Some kids knew
29:36 the ton . Some kids were really struggling and was
29:39 very hard to give the right lecture . I always
29:41 felt inadequate because I couldn't get the level right .
29:44 The point is , I shouldn't have to do that
29:46 . Each kid should get the level of instruction appropriate
29:49 to them as an individual and individualized tutor with people
29:54 . We can't afford that right . The last guy
29:57 to get a great individualized education was Alexander the Great
30:00 . He had Aristotle as a tutor and he conquered
30:03 the whole Mediterranean basin . Okay , so that's the
30:05 power of individualization . But now , with software ,
30:09 we can do that one by one . And there's
30:11 so much work going on to create individualized approach .
30:14 So the students , the level of instruction adapts to
30:17 the individual students level , and they make more progress
30:21 . And teachers . Well , we're gonna do this
30:23 revolution in schools where teachers are not going to be
30:26 lecturing two students . They're going to be helping students
30:29 go faster , figure out things on an individualized basis
30:33 . And that's just the very beginning of what the
30:35 technology revolution is doing . And it's applicable on a
30:38 global basis . All right , Sal , save the
30:42 world . Yes , I agree . Just in case
30:47 you I can't imagine you don't know about the Khan
30:51 Academy . Anybody but or if you didn't watch the
30:53 show that he and I did together or you haven't
30:56 read How many people have called him such a great
30:58 teacher ? What is it that you have done that
31:02 has resonated building on what Regis said ? What makes
31:07 you as a teacher ? Good . You're making a
31:12 brown man blush . Your , um it's a ,
31:20 um what do you know ? You know , I
31:24 think it's It's it's I think it was no accident
31:28 that it was successful because it was somewhat of an
31:30 accident . Uh , the fact that it was started
31:33 for my family that the tone of voice I used
31:36 in those early videos was for my cousin that they
31:39 could tell that , you know , it wasn't coming
31:41 from a publishing committee and , you know , publishing
31:43 house with a committee of people making a script .
31:46 Just take a step back and tell us , because
31:47 just in case there's one person don't know what you
31:50 have done what you did ? Yeah . No ,
31:52 it started with me tutoring my cousins remotely . They
31:56 were in New Orleans . I was in Boston ,
31:58 and then I , uh , I started putting videos
32:01 on YouTube because I start having 15 , 20 cousins
32:02 around the country that I had to scale somehow ,
32:05 Uh , and then they got popular . And there
32:07 were these little kind of just their technology , but
32:10 in many ways very , very simple technology . I
32:12 just use technology as a way to reproduce a lot
32:15 of what you see in an old school lecture .
32:16 Maybe what Aristotle did with Alexander the Great , you
32:18 know , literally like a chalk talk type thing .
32:20 And but I think what people found it appealing .
32:23 I wasn't the first person to on put online video
32:25 Khan Academy as a team . We're not the first
32:27 people to think about self paced learning and all of
32:28 that , but I think what what people read and
32:31 we might just be at the right point in history
32:32 where a lot of this stuff is is ready to
32:34 be used and people understand it . But I think
32:36 what we've read , what's resonated with people are that
32:40 they're very real . They're very human that people ,
32:42 you know , even though it is , you know
32:43 , there's like 3.5 million students using it every month
32:46 . They feel a connection with the teacher . They
32:47 have a level of trust . They don't you know
32:50 , I got an email from a student who said
32:52 it was amazing . He never got higher than a
32:54 C G . P in any math class he ever
32:56 took . Finally went . Now he's a four point
32:58 oh , GPA and electrical engineering . And what his
33:00 point was , you know , he liked all these
33:02 intangibles , but he wants some of those videos 30
33:04 times and and his point was , there's no tutor
33:06 he could have paid that would not have gotten a
33:08 little judgmental , you know , by the by the
33:12 But but But I am infinitely patient , Uh ,
33:16 and I think those are the things I mean ,
33:18 you know , we don't know all the right answers
33:20 , but I think those are the things that are
33:21 making you know . And this is the other very
33:23 un intuitive thing here . Whenever you think about technology
33:25 in the classroom and there's a lot of knee jerk
33:27 reaction that it's like , Oh , we're gonna go
33:29 to this like Vulcan reality with , you know ,
33:31 you know , or the board or whatever it might
33:33 be and what we're seeing in every pilot class we're
33:37 doing where you have every student working at their own
33:38 pace , it's making it a more human experience .
33:41 You don't have a teacher lecturing anymore Now you have
33:45 a teacher sitting next to the students . You have
33:46 the students interacting with each other . They're all going
33:48 at their own pace . They're all engaged the entire
33:50 time . And one thing we point out is you
33:52 know , there's a lot of debate about the student
33:53 to teacher ratio . What we think is what's important
33:56 is the student to valuable time with the teacher ratio
33:58 . And that number old model teacher has maybe 5
34:02 10% of class time to really connect with students .
34:04 I mean , I've sat in whole classrooms where I've
34:06 I've never had a conversation with the teacher and now
34:08 100% of the time is doing that . So we
34:10 think it's it's increasing the humanity in the classroom by
34:13 an order of magnitude . Alright , Kim . It's
34:18 reflect on quality teaching because it , I mean you
34:21 were motivated to do it differently . Well , I
34:24 think it ties back to what Sal is saying ,
34:26 actually , and to technology in a way , because
34:28 we have such an outmoded sense of what quality teaching
34:32 is and and as reads it , it's really not
34:35 fair to teachers to say you're going to have a
34:37 group of kids who are in quite diverse places ,
34:40 and you have to sort of teach to the middle
34:42 and struggle through . So my sense of quality teaching
34:44 for the future is , um , someone who's passionate
34:47 about it . First of all , someone who's inspiring
34:49 all the things . I mean , we've all had
34:50 a great teacher , right ? You know what they
34:52 bring to the to the endeavor ? What I'm hopeful
34:55 about with technology a south Side is it doesn't make
34:59 schools teacher proof , right ? I think about what
35:01 you're doing . Also , here in California , rocketship
35:03 education is using technology to teach basic skills so that
35:07 then teachers can teach in the way they're excited to
35:10 teach around projects and higher order thinking skills . And
35:14 similarly , with school of one that was incubated in
35:17 New York City , essentially a playlist . A student
35:20 arrives and gets a playlist for instruction . They're starting
35:22 with math , Um , and while it was designed
35:25 for personalized learning for kids , right , they get
35:27 what they're ready for . What they learned is that
35:30 the teachers found the work so much more satisfying because
35:33 number one they were asked to teach the things they
35:35 teach best . So they enjoyed that , and someone
35:37 else could teach the other item that they didn't get
35:40 so well and the Children were arriving to them ,
35:42 ready to learn that subject , right ? So ,
35:44 by personalizing it for the kids , which is our
35:47 ultimate goal , they made the teaching job more exciting
35:50 and more rewarding for teachers . And so , for
35:53 me , when I think about quality teaching , it's
35:55 all tied up in the culture and an exciting and
35:58 rewarding place to work compensation . That's a job where
36:01 you can provide for your family and to get those
36:04 things . We have to let go of the old
36:07 way of teaching with your door closed and embrace technology
36:10 because that's the only way we can get there .
36:12 To pay teachers better to give them more flexibility to
36:15 innovate . We can't pay any more money into the
36:18 system , so we have to reconfigure and use technology
36:21 to let teachers teach better . I think what we
36:24 haven't people really don't get what a modern teacher is
36:28 enduring in the classroom , and so we have teachers
36:31 fresh . Imagine this going to a profession where you
36:33 come fresh out . You jump into a school that
36:35 does not have a great culture . You're put in
36:37 a classroom where your principles too busy filling out all
36:39 kind of forms . If they're not doing proper teacher
36:41 evaluation , you have kids coming to you nutritionally unfit
36:44 to learn off the materially , unfit to learn that
36:47 have discipline challenges that have differentiated learning needs and your
36:51 and and then you expect to get no tools .
36:53 You get no tools , no support and technology ,
36:56 and you're expected to to to lift them all up
36:59 on the certain test . And if you're not doing
37:01 that , you're a bad teacher , and so we're
37:02 not creating . And then you're as you were saying
37:05 earlier . Your compensation is based upon how many years
37:07 in school how many years you are , and it's
37:09 stuck there no matter what you do , no matter
37:11 how hard you work , it's stuck there . And
37:13 so I think we've really suppressed a profession and people
37:16 are not going to the teaching profession because it's often
37:18 not as supportive , inviting and satisfying . And then
37:22 people often cycle out of the teaching profession and raise
37:24 their far too high , and we continue doing this
37:27 and expect these teachers to play every role imaginable from
37:31 parent to nutritionists to disciplinarian and never really get to
37:34 the core of of instruction , then we're never going
37:37 to elevate the teaching profession where it should be in
37:39 any thriving democracy , really , at the top of
37:42 our order of priority . So , Charlie , I
37:49 think this point about technology is a really important one
37:51 , and I think there are a few things that
37:53 have changed at the same time to really create a
37:55 tidal wave effect . First of all , we have
37:57 a generation that is completely comfortable with online learning ,
38:01 completely comfortable . They just as soon do that as
38:04 being a classroom . And in fact , if you
38:05 go into a large lecture hall now you see it's
38:08 not terribly functional . The students are sitting there with
38:11 their laptops . They have little laptops open , but
38:13 they're not taking notes there . On Facebook , they're
38:16 chatting with friends . They're doing other things , getting
38:19 them online in an interactive mode . Short snippets .
38:23 Look at this snippet and now do a quiz test
38:25 . Whether you've really mastered the knowledge , it's a
38:27 better way to teach young people , and I think
38:30 it's going to also have to help us address cost
38:32 . I mean , Cory alluded to the challenge we
38:34 face in higher education , which is a cost based
38:37 challenge . And while the Stanfords of the world doing
38:40 fine , you see the struggle that our colleagues at
38:42 U C . Berkeley and the C . S .
38:44 U . S and the community colleges are going on
38:47 and we're going to destroy this great public education higher
38:50 education system we have if we don't fix it and
38:52 it's about cost . We've got to figure out how
38:55 to use technology to improve outcomes and reduce costs at
38:59 the same time . Technologically , a great example of
39:01 that in in real practice is a Stanford graduate .
39:06 It was doubly here 15 , 20 years ago .
39:08 John Tanner . Um , it goes to Oracle's ,
39:11 does a startup , makes a lot of money in
39:13 99 sells his company very smart move , then ,
39:16 um and then , instead of going back into technology
39:19 , he goes and becomes a teacher and learns schools
39:22 . And then he starts a set of schools called
39:24 rocket ship schools that Kim referred to in San Jose
39:28 . All technology based , very driven on technology ,
39:31 all low income Hispanic area schools . Five of them
39:34 now and their scores are slightly higher than Palo Alto
39:39 right now . Okay , so their costs are way
39:44 less so they're using technology because he's a fresh thinker
39:47 , right ? He's a guy who's bicultural , figuring
39:50 out that , tell me what he's doing other than
39:52 simply using technology , what's happening there that makes his
39:56 results better than Palo Alto . His culture , um
39:59 , that he does that he has evolved is a
40:02 culture where they don't get , say , bottom quartile
40:04 teachers . They get teachers who are a very aggressive
40:07 intellectually because they treat them like professionals so they attract
40:10 better teachers . Because of this professional climate , they
40:13 use technology to do the road part to do the
40:16 constant . You know , you really do have to
40:17 learn your multiplication tables . You really have to do
40:19 learn fraction spelling . And then they use the actual
40:22 teaching time to be much more intellectual and value added
40:26 and creative . So the teachers like it , and
40:29 the kids respond to it on this individualized basis because
40:32 they don't feel like they're behind . It's a terrible
40:34 feeling to be in a second grader and you ,
40:36 you're not understanding what's going on . And so they've
40:39 turned that dynamic , and now they're growing . So
40:42 they started with just one school , Then it got
40:44 to two schools . Now it's five schools and they've
40:46 got very big ambitions to be hundreds of schools across
40:49 America , and we need not just John Danner to
40:52 do that . We need him to have other companies
40:55 , and it's a nonprofit . Other non profits to
40:57 do the same thing , which is build big networks
41:00 of charter schools that then share ideas because one last
41:05 thing on rocket ship before we move on , Sometimes
41:08 when people hear the money saving , they have a
41:10 knee jerk reaction that we're talking about efficiency rather than
41:13 quality . And so I just want the last thing
41:15 about Rocket ship is they save half a million dollars
41:18 a year per school by using computer based learning for
41:21 the road skills with a team leader rather than a
41:23 teacher . And then they reinvest that in higher teacher
41:26 salaries and professional development and that culture So it doesn't
41:29 I don't want to leave people with a sense that
41:31 lower costs means the money leaves . You reinvest it
41:34 in a way that's smarter . To make the teaching
41:36 job better to then grow and have that great culture
41:40 certainly . Well , I'm a psychologist and I don't
41:43 want to miss the opportunity to underscore a general principle
41:45 here about technology in these contexts . I think a
41:48 lot of these students struggle with school , in part
41:51 because they feel they're behind every newspaper tells them there
41:55 there behind . So you're learning under that kind of
41:58 a cloud , so to speak . And technology enables
42:00 you to kind of have this space without that cloud
42:03 . And so I I don't think it's It's a
42:05 small thing . I think it's a big thing in
42:08 this problem . Big , big , technique solved guy
42:10 who watched the video 30 times , and we don't
42:13 care how many times it takes him 30 someone else
42:16 . 40 u five Because you can do that without
42:18 embarrassment and then master the subject and move on .
42:21 So it is the right huge implications for their sense
42:24 of what they could do . Would you guys agree
42:26 that we're talking a lot about technology ? It's not
42:28 mature yet , so we could give a false impression
42:31 that , you know , if you just run back
42:33 to your school and go to technology , it's gonna
42:35 make all the difference . It's extremely raw today .
42:37 Why has it been so ? Technology has been with
42:40 us , and the kind of technology we have has
42:41 been with us for a while , Why is it
42:43 so difficult to bring it to maturity ? Well ,
42:46 there's a couple of things that are helping now ,
42:48 which is the Web is the biggest one . So
42:50 Web based computing makes it much easier for Sal Khan
42:54 to develop these lectures and distribute them not on CD
42:56 ROM but on online in the cost of computing .
42:59 The fact that you can get a $500 touch screen
43:02 that you can get a $300 laptop . So it's
43:05 just continued progress on bringing the costs of technology down
43:08 and continue improvement in efficiency of distribution . So 20
43:13 years ago , Khan couldn't have done what they're doing
43:15 because just to print all the CD ROMs and to
43:18 market those CD ROMs would be his entire budget .
43:21 And now we have to do is great work ,
43:23 and it's distributed for free via YouTube . Can you
43:26 imagine a day in which we can go to our
43:28 computer and watch movies ? No , Never gonna happen
43:32 . Bbd forever . Yeah , All right , John
43:41 , There's no money in another key thing to remember
43:44 in all this is we've got to think about measuring
43:48 schools and outcomes in a way far too much of
43:51 school reform has been anecdotal . We think the problem
43:55 is X . It's class size . It's teacher quality
43:58 . It's big schools , small schools . We've got
44:01 to do experiments . We have to measure schools .
44:04 We have to figure out why a school performs the
44:07 charter schools . Studies have been interesting . If you
44:10 look at charter schools early on in their life ,
44:12 they struggle Well , guess what ? Every new school
44:15 struggles you've got a new teacher corps . You're developing
44:17 a culture . You're getting a leadership team . All
44:19 new schools struggle . If you look at charter schools
44:22 that get through that infant mortality part and develop over
44:25 time , that's where you begin to see a difference
44:28 between charter school performance and non charter performance . So
44:31 we've got to be prepared to experiment . And I
44:33 know parents hate the idea that we're experimenting with their
44:36 kids , but we are doing it now . We
44:38 just don't tell them . So we need to face
44:41 up to it , evaluate the experiments , figure out
44:43 what works , figure out how to make great schools
44:45 across the entire country , I think , he said
44:48 , before you talked about it being anecdotal , which
44:50 is true , I would argue that worse than it
44:53 being anecdotal It's been ideological for a long time .
44:56 So we've had the left who thought it had to
44:58 go a certain way and keep people equal and not
45:01 have choice because some people were leaving and we had
45:03 the right . We thought it needed to be a
45:04 certain way , and it's all about choice . What
45:06 I think the future has to be . And this
45:09 is part of what I love about entrepreneurs and part
45:11 of what I love about leaders like Corey . We
45:13 have to become non ideological and very pragmatic , right
45:16 , and to be pragmatic , we need the data
45:18 right , but we just have to be open to
45:21 whatever is going to work . And if I thought
45:23 project based learning was the only way because it worked
45:25 for my kids . But I go into a school
45:27 in Newark and realize I can't do that right now
45:29 . They need computers to get basic skills and then
45:31 to do projects or whatever , like the ideology I
45:34 think , is part of what has held us back
45:36 , even on the front of technology , because there
45:38 was sort of an ideological belief that technology and education
45:42 was bad , because it would replace teachers like that
45:46 was really pervasive , and we're just getting past that
45:49 fear now , slowly because of a new generation of
45:53 educators who were . It's just so much more comfortable
45:55 with technology in their own lives . But it's not
45:58 , too , reads Point . We're not going to
46:00 flip tomorrow into all technology based . We're just seeing
46:04 a new openness . Finally , I think you want
46:07 to come back to this moment . But Claude ,
46:08 tell me , what's the evaluation at this moment of
46:12 the effectiveness of charter school ? Because it's been a
46:16 bit of sort of of evidence that they're not always
46:20 delivering that much better than public schools . I thought
46:24 that question might come up , so I did some
46:27 snooping and I mean , I I think , uh
46:30 , you know you The research is hard to evaluate
46:35 , and one , almost every single study has some
46:37 kind of flaw that can that can lead you to
46:40 disqualify it . But I I think the general conclusion
46:45 would be that some are extremely effective . Some are
46:48 not very effective at all , and some are completely
46:51 equivalent with with public why , why those that are
46:54 effective , effective , and why those that are not
46:56 effective , not effective . Uh , there I I
47:01 think there's a very interesting experiment going on in Houston
47:04 in that regard that may give us a clearer picture
47:06 of this . This is done by Roland Fryer ,
47:08 who has abstracted from the successful charter schools the five
47:13 or six principles that he thinks are critical longer school
47:16 days , weekends , longer school years , forms of
47:19 instruction . And Houston has allowed him to randomly assign
47:23 some schools to get these five things and other schools
47:26 to go on as they're going on now . So
47:28 I think that's the kind of research that President Hennessy
47:32 is referring to that we're going to need to give
47:35 a definitive answer to this question of And in a
47:40 sense , I think the question is misguided . I
47:43 think the significance of charter schools is their greater significance
47:47 . Is that their political ? They're opening up the
47:50 school system so that innovation has a chance that that
47:53 change can can be considered with without dealing with an
47:58 awful lot of regulations that have accumulated over a period
48:01 of time . So you have a greater freedom ,
48:03 and I think that's a really critical feature in a
48:06 public school system . We only have 5% of the
48:09 school in the United States are charter schools , and
48:11 they'll never really be the complete answer . But it's
48:14 important for a system to have the capacity to innovate
48:17 and to explore things . So I think that feature
48:20 of them makes the idea of Chartres valuable . Aside
48:24 from whether you could add how effective they are not
48:27 effective public schools better if they have competition , I
48:33 don't know . Absolutely why , why Absolutely higher education
48:40 competition Works . Stanford Competes against Berkeley . They went
48:44 in football and they win another thing . Mm ,
48:49 but we do . We compete . We compete head
48:51 to head with Berkeley for the best students , the
48:53 best faculty . We compete with institutions across the country
48:56 . I think it makes us all better . It
48:58 gives us all but not just public school of public
49:00 school but public school to charter school , public school
49:02 , to nonprofits who are creating different kinds of school
49:05 models . It's a good thing . Uh , I
49:10 no , when I need all the help . Thank
49:13 you , Kim . When you say charter schools will
49:15 not be the whole solution . That's like Thomas Watson
49:18 Jr saying the world market for computers is three .
49:22 Okay , which is it's a time frame reference .
49:25 So he was right in the short term , and
49:26 you're all right for this decade . Charter schools are
49:29 not the whole solution for this decade , but over
49:31 30 years , all public schools will need to be
49:35 run by non profits with good governance . And it
49:38 is the long term solution for governance . So just
49:41 watch out for being quote in the short term and
49:43 long term so you don't end up Cory . Are
49:45 you prepared to say that I'm prepared to say that
49:48 that that what charter schools have done and by the
49:50 way , there's charter schools I love what ? What
49:53 Dean still said is that they run the gamut .
49:55 I've seen charter schools in my city that are the
49:57 height of educational excellence , their cathedrals of learning .
50:00 And I've seen charter schools that are really , really
50:02 bad and that I asked my commissioner . Education is
50:06 shut down . But what ? What charter schools have
50:08 done is a challenge the pernicious , uh , bigotry
50:13 that all Children cant learn . And and so they
50:17 are creating towering testimonies that we are not doing good
50:21 enough and that one to systematize great education . We're
50:25 gonna have to find a model that works and can
50:28 be sustained over long periods of time , and that
50:31 is sort of the tumultuous cauldron of conflict that's going
50:34 on . But what do you think that model will
50:37 look like ? You said we have got to find
50:40 the model . I think the model in Newark and
50:42 what we're going for is having a system that is
50:44 open where the parents have a choice over numerous models
50:48 of what's best for their kids . And so there
50:50 are models that , you know , people have been
50:52 pooing , Uh , education that's focused on trades and
50:56 skills will have those choices . They'll be models for
50:59 high achieving kids , and by the time they finished
51:01 high school , they can get two years of their
51:02 college education . And so so how those are governed
51:05 that this sort of portfolio model is to me ,
51:08 it should be governed by the schools popping up that
51:11 are best for their kids interest and whether read is
51:13 right or there is some hybrid of that . At
51:17 the end of the day , we can we cannot
51:18 be loyal to a distribution mechanism , district , school
51:23 , non profit , whatever we have to be as
51:26 a nation loyal to the results are produced for our
51:28 Children . Simple as that I , I would agree
51:33 , agree with that . I think the governance theory
51:36 that Reid is adhering to is one that I'm really
51:38 excited about because it allows for all this innovation ,
51:41 whether it's the complete solution forever , I'm not sure
51:44 . And one of the real problems , I think
51:46 at this point is finding enough really good educators to
51:50 run these charter schools . Uh , it's not as
51:53 if they're just lined up somewhere there to create them
51:57 . I think that's where schools of education entered the
52:00 picture , that we need to to seriously , uh
52:03 , augment the training that we make available for school
52:07 leaders . That's going to be critical to any of
52:09 this development . New Orleans is the great test example
52:13 of what you're talking about , because in New Orleans
52:16 the charter schools educate about 70% of the Children in
52:20 New Orleans , and it's been an educational renaissance throughout
52:23 the city . And there's all different . There's Kip
52:25 . There's a whole wide range of different charter schools
52:28 , and not every single charter school is excellent ,
52:30 just like not every college is excellent . But on
52:32 balance , the skinny is The city of New Orleans
52:35 has gone from one of the lowest performing Urban's 10
52:38 years ago in the entire nation to solidly in the
52:41 middle of the pack and rising . And so New
52:43 Orleans is the laboratory for urban reform , where nearly
52:47 every child is in a charter school . Say Corey's
52:52 point about portfolio and it fits with greed is the
52:56 thing we haven't said about charter schools is a charter
52:59 is a contract . It is a compact to perform
53:02 , and it fundamentally turns around your sense of the
53:05 school's permanence , right ? The problem with district schools
53:08 because their district schools that are terrible , too .
53:10 And guess what ? They've been around for 30 years
53:12 and nothing's happened to them with a charter , You
53:15 said you have the state close them down , right
53:17 ? That is the deal with charters . We make
53:19 an agreement with you as the public that you will
53:22 do what's best for kids , and if you fail
53:24 , it is understood that the school will then be
53:27 closed down . So that's a totally different thing when
53:30 you look at the spread of them because we can
53:32 close the bad ones down and then the last piece
53:34 around that they give us this opportunity for aligning people
53:38 and innovation . I'm glad you brought up the leadership
53:40 point because all these things we're doing are sort of
53:43 on the small scale and a little bit on the
53:45 margin , as we've said . So I'm hopeful about
53:48 them . But I don't want to put the blame
53:50 entirely on schools event , and I'm happy to hear
53:52 what you're saying , Dean Steel . But our schools
53:55 have that are broken . We are not preparing teachers
53:57 or principals or administrators for this new future we're talking
54:00 about . We had a conference last week for hybrid
54:03 learning like Rocket Ship to talk about what's working .
54:05 There's another great example . Carpe diem and all these
54:08 folks who are trying this blended model with computer based
54:11 and richer instruction are doing it themselves . They have
54:14 nowhere to go to get teachers and principals who have
54:17 been prepared for that environment . And that's a shame
54:19 We have to fix that . Yeah , I want
54:22 to come back to South . I mean , you
54:24 have a model . I mean , you suppose the
54:26 god powers that be an education , said young man
54:31 . You've done a quite good job , and we
54:32 appreciate what the Khan Academy's come designed . The model
54:36 of the future for us in terms of how we
54:38 educate our Children , because when we see in these
54:41 movies about the lotteries that will enable in a parent
54:44 to put a kid in another school and the sheer
54:46 conviction they have , that the decision that takes place
54:50 here will determine my child's life right now . So
54:55 I think the first step is some of what we've
54:56 already talked about having real differentiation . That's where technology
54:59 comes into play , where you really mastered things before
55:01 moving on . But I think the more systemic thing
55:03 that really could happen at the policy level is our
55:05 entire conversation . Charter , public , private , whatever
55:08 we talk about K through 12 education , then we
55:10 talk about college degrees and implicit in those two words
55:13 are kind of seat time , 13 years of seat
55:16 time that another four years of seat time . Or
55:18 it might be more than four years of seat time
55:20 without anyone ever thinking about Well , what have you
55:22 learned over those 12 years and then those four years
55:25 ? So I'd like to see a reality and in
55:26 some states are experimenting . Oregon's , I think ,
55:28 the leader here , where the achievement based mechanism where
55:32 , however you learn something , whether it's you know
55:34 , at the community college , at a four year
55:36 institution on Khan Academy or from your from your dad
55:39 , you can go take a take an exam .
55:41 And once you take that exam , no one's gonna
55:42 force you to sit in a year and in that
55:44 classroom . And I'd like to see a rally where
55:46 that happens K through 12 and at the university level
55:48 . I think it's actually even more powerful at the
55:50 university level because everyone is telling , we'll get go
55:53 , get a degree , go get a degree .
55:54 And we know there's a trillion dollars in student debt
55:57 and the return on that debt isn't clear . I
55:59 mean , if you go to Stanford , you're gonna
56:00 get the return . But if you go to some
56:01 other , you know , there's thousands of universities and
56:05 it may not be valid . Victoria , the minute
56:10 I was no , no , no , I won't
56:12 clarify that . I'll just let that hang . But
56:14 the , uh , I lost my train of thought
56:18 , but the you would . But I would I
56:21 would I would like to see realities right now .
56:22 You have . You were telling this narrative to students
56:24 , many of them who are underprivileged students and go
56:26 to college . They're taking these loans . They're not
56:28 working for four years and then they leave . And
56:30 their their job they're getting isn't better than what their
56:32 dad or mom got with just a high school diploma
56:34 . And so what I say is decouple the credential
56:37 from the learning experience . So if I learn on
56:39 the job how to do network security or if I
56:41 if I learned from contacting the community college , I
56:43 can go get a credential . And what that does
56:45 is then the cost isn't the cost of a campus
56:47 . The cost isn't the cost of professor salary ,
56:50 maybe the research and all that . The cost is
56:52 the cost of the assessment , and it could be
56:54 a deeper assessment than what we're doing right now in